S2E4 -Dirt, Data, and Decisions

All right, welcome, everyone, to the Innovation Flow podcast, where we talk about all things park pilot and research initiatives. Today we're focusing on a research partnership that South Platte Renew has had for a long time. And I have some great guests today to talk about that. I have Steve Blecker. Steve is a CSU research soil scientist, PhD soil guru from CSU. Thanks for being here today, Steve.

You bet, Blair. Thanks for having me.

You bet. And Dan DeLauder is SPR South Platinum regulatory Programs Manager, who oversees a lot of the biosolids reporting and regulatory side of the biosolids world. Thanks for being here, Dan.

Thanks for having me.

Well, before we get right into the topic, let's maybe just go ahead and introduce yourself. Steve, you can go first. Tell the listeners a little bit about who you are, what you do, how you got to be a soil scientist. I'm kind of interested in your pathway to where you're at now and whatever else you want to tell the listeners.

Yeah, sure. So, yeah, again, I'm Steve Blecker, currently working at Colorado State University. And yeah, how I got into soils, certainly I kind of backed into soils, really. I mean, I didn't grow up on a farm or ranch or anything. I grew up in the suburbs of Pennsylvania. And, you know, I went to undergrad at Penn State, and I was kind of just didn't know what I wanted to do. And I took an introductory soils class and I was like, hey. I mean, it was like, this is great. This. I didn't mean. I didn't even know people studied soils. You know, I was like, this is pretty amazing. So I just kind of ran with it after that. And, yeah, I went to grad school at Colorado State University, and I've just been chasing jobs all over the western US Love it out here.

Cool.

The past several decades.

Yeah. You've been running with it a long, long way.

Yeah, I've worked for, Geez, Forest Service, usgs, different universities. Yeah, I have a hard time staying one place, apparently.

Yeah, well, that was going to be the interesting question that I have for each of you, but I'll just get to it now for you. Where's one place that you ended up where you never thought you'd end up when you began your career?

Yeah. Well, definitely would be Antarctica. I mean, I never thought I would. I don't think most people think they're going to wind up in Antarctica.

Yeah, I know I wouldn't.

There's a group of researchers at Colorado State that have been studied, go down there every winter. Well, which is winter here, is summer down there, and they were studying soils down there. There's a little bit of Antarctica that's not covered with ice and snow. So they were doing some soil and nematode studies down there. They needed another warm body, basically, and I just happened to be in the right place.

Cool. Yeah. I was thinking. It seems to be like. It'd be hard there. It's all like frozen permafrost or whatever. But there is some way to. To get to the soil.

Huh? Well, there's some valleys that, for whatever reason are. They've been blown free of. They haven't had any glaciers or snow collecting in there, so.

Cool. Was that a. Was that a good experience, Antarctica?

Oh, yeah, yeah. That was fantastic. I mean, there's just nothing quite like it.

Yeah. Yeah. That's a once in a lifetime deal. All right, Dan, how about you give a little background on you, how you. You got to where you are and the most interesting place this job's ever taken you. Or maybe not this job. A job.

Sure. So, yeah, I grew up actually in upstate New York. There's a, you know, lots of water issues up there with like, the contamination in the Hudson river and all that. So I kind of moved. Knew about water issues even growing up. Came out here in 2003 for grad school. Also went to CSU for grad school, went to Union College for undergrad. I'm actually, actually a civil engineer by training. After kind of doing the general civil engineering stuff, I. I thought, I definitely want to do something with water. And then got really interested in water rights coming out of school and. And as a consultant, did that for the first five years and then got even more interested in. In water quality regulations and permitting. So not necessarily the kinds of things a civil engineer might do usually, but it's. It's been an interesting journey. And I've been at South Platte Renew now for coming up on 10 years, so it's been a really great place to be for doing the things I enjoy.

Yeah. Yeah. I always like to hear people's origin story, and it's always. Not always, but a lot of times it's like that. I thought I was starting out here. I ended up here, and I love it over here. You know, it's like people find where they need to be. It seems like. Well, good. Let's start.

Oh, did you want my place?

Yeah. Oh, yeah.

Yeah.

You've ever been to Antarctica?

No, not Antarctica.

All right, you win, Steve. You win with Antarctica.

I think one of the. The more Interesting places I've seen out in the field for work is the Climax Molybdenum mine.

Oh, that's good.

I did a fair amount of permitting for the Eagle River Water and Sanitation District. And so it's just this super interesting. You know, you get up there and it's on the divide of three river basins. They have trucks that are bigger than your house hauling the material around. And then sitting right next to that operation is this beautiful mountain lake that's used for water supply downstream. And it used to be a tailings pond that they remediated. So I got to go up there a couple times and do water quality sampling out in a boat on that lake. And it's just. Just a wild place to see all that come together with different uses of water.

Cool. Well, those are both good. Antarctica Climax Molybdenum. I gotta get out more. I gotta get two or more. All right, well, let's talk biosolids. Let's talk. Maybe Dan, as the regulatory program manager, deals with biosolids. Maybe give listeners an idea. I mean, I know people hear biosolids. They think, you know, kind of this fertilizer product. But what is all involved in a biosolids program at a municipality or a wastewater treatment plant like South Platte Renew.

Yeah. So I do think probably not a lot of people think about biosolids to begin with.

Yeah, probably not. I was assuming everybody knew exactly what they were. Maybe just tell people what biosolids are first.

Yeah, well, but I guess even in wastewater, it can be an afterthought. Right. So really, biosolids is the solid portion of the treatment process. So as the water goes through the different processes we have here, those solids get separated out through different filters and settling tanks, and then they're removed into a separate process. Those. The removal actually happens through little bugs microbiology. There's bacteria that pull out the nutrients, the organic matter. They reduce odors along the way, and then it goes into some additional processes like thickening and then de. Watering. So I think really like the. The first part of the process relies on. On our operators and maintenance staff to just make that happen effectively and efficiently. The final material, we call it cake is. It's like, I don't know, it almost reminds me of kinetic sand or something.

It's not cake. It doesn't taste like cake.

It's sort of like a play DOH type texture. And then really the treatment process here is just the beginning. So we have this whole separate part of the operation where we need to get that out to the land application sites.

So that's by land application sites, you're talking farms.

Yep. So we have about 10,000 acres of dry land farms. So that means we're not applying supplemental irrigation. So it's really just whatever falls from. From rainfall. And those. That process involves truck drivers. So they have to make, you know, multiple trips each day. Usually about three trips a day each. Each direction is about an hour, 50 to 60 miles out to these farm sites. So that in itself is a big part of the operation. And then when it gets out there, those same guys are putting it, spreading this material on the fields. And then beyond that, we also have farmers that we partner with who actually grow crops in those fields, what kind

of stuff they growing.

So typically it's dry land. Wheat and dry land corn are the main things. We also have been rotating in millet, I think, in the past. We've done sunflowers in the past.

All right, so it goes out to the farms. You put it on the soil, it helps the crops grow. That's where Steve comes in. Right. The. The soil biosolids interaction. What are some of the concerns or what are some of the. What's all involved in that? Putting biosolids on the soil, helping the crops grow?

Yeah, sure. Well, I mean, you want to make sure you're. You're not harming the plants, right? I mean, you want to. This has to have a positive impact on plant growth. And what we've done over the years, we've compared biosolids treatment applications to just more standard inorganic fertilizers. So, you know, kind of what's the difference? I mean, is there. How are the crop yields being affected? And over the years, I mean, this research has been going for decades, and we haven't really. The biosalids seem to make a really good substitute for inorganic fertilizer. I mean, we get. The yields are just as good. And in fact, we've even seen in some of the grain samples, you get a little bit higher zinc content, kind of important micronutrients. So you kind of grind it up and make bread out of it or whatever, you know, so within it. So it's. Yeah, we don't. We have to monitor for metals, of course, so you don't want to. You don't want to have anything. We monitor for like lead and arsenic and cadmium and all this stuff that would impede plant growth. And we haven't noticed any issues with that. So we're just.

Yeah, so there's some contaminants, like metals that you don't want to get too high. And then there's some, like, nutrient type analytes that you want at a certain rate. Is that. Yeah, yeah.

And it's all based on the nitrogen requirements of a different crop. So that's how we decide on how much the application rate of the biosolids to put down.

Yeah.

But, you know, and within those biosolids, there's also all kinds of different micronutrients, phosphorus, pretty much. The plants don't need any sort of supplemental fertilizer. You can just. They get by on the biosolids. And it doesn't even happen every year. I mean, we just base it on a soil test.

Yeah.

To tell us, you know, how much to put on and when. So we can go sometimes two or three years without making a biosolids application.

Yeah.

And still get good crop production.

Cool. Well, how long is this, this partnership between South Platte Renew. You said decades. How long has it been going on? How did it start and where's it going? I guess that's for either of you. Dan, you want to start out?

We were just comparing notes for this. Yeah. So as best we can tell, because none of us were around, started 1982. So we're now well into 40 plus years of this partnership with CSU. And Steve knows some of the people, I think, that were originally involved.

Yeah, there was a soil chemistry professor, I'm assuming, who started this off, Dr. Ken Barbrick, who must have somehow got hooked up with you guys when you were Littleton, Englewood, and. Yeah, someone had the idea of, you know, what can we do other than putting in a landfill? You know, can we apply this to crops? What's going to happen? So they spent a lot of time figuring out the different application rates and how it would affect crop yield versus, you know, kind of what I was talking about before versus inorganic fertilizer. So these different plots have bounced around in the Eastern plains for, you know, since 1982. And then we're currently the main. The main plots. Test plots we have now. We're started in 1999, so.

Cool. So these test plots are a little, you know, how many acres you say is applied to or the. The plant owns?

I think it's. Oh, total. Total acres that we apply to is about 10,000 acres.

And so this is a little subset test area of that that you run experiments, do research, collect data.

Exactly. Yeah. The plots are about, I don't know, 50ft wide, 100ft wide. And they're split into an inorganic treatment and a biosolids treatment, they're replicated so we can get the statistics to make sure these things are. What we're saying is happening is like statistically significant.

Yeah. Cool. What is the. I guess this is more for Dan. What? Why does South Platte renew do this? Why do you think it's important to, to have this partnership?

Yeah. So I think the, the strength of that long term data set is, is just so valuable, you know, when new pollutants are become a concern. Like we've had PFAS in the news a lot lately. We can go back, we have these long term data sets and we can go back and look at soil samples and crop samples that CSU keeps on file in, you know, essentially a crop library. We can go back and they can analyze those things for these different pollutants and see how things have changed over time. So it's just really a great way to track the impact of applying this biosolids material on soils and growing crops there over decades.

Yeah. So you get research at the time, but then you also have a library of soil you can look back on. It's like a time capsule.

Yeah.

Because I mean PFAS hasn't really hit everybody's radar until fairly recently, but we've got samples that go back decades. Draw on to see how that may have changed over time.

Yeah. And I've heard there's been a lot of research papers and studies articles out of CSU using this data or using this research. Can you talk a little bit about. Has there been. You guys do a lot with it as far as papers or students working with the data?

Yeah, we've had definitely have some grad students involved in this over the years and they kind of take different routes. I mean we analyze a pretty standard suite of a lot of different nutrients mainly. But yeah, folks have, I mean, I remember there's Another key researcher, Dr. Jim Epolito was involved in this for a long, long time and he's been, I mean he was looking at barium concentrations under like a scanning electron microscope. He's been doing all kinds of interesting things.

Yeah. Yeah. That's good to see what, what all is out there, what you can find, what's new, what's coming down the pipe. You mentioned PFAs. Are there's other, other concerns with biosolids or what are the, the risks of to land application or are there risks?

Well, I think in terms of the research, a big part of it is also the benefits. Right?

Yeah.

Like what, what can we do? How can we do different crop rotations or, you know, even erosion control or, I don't know, down the road maybe there's even ways to, you know, look at different crop strains and things like that that are more drought resistant. So, yeah, I think when you ask what the risks are to a biosolids program, um, my mind goes to can, can you apply more than you generate? That's really where all the risks boil down. And I think we've seen here that drought can show up that way. You know, if, if you get multiple years of drought in a row, you can't grow a crop and you can't uptake the, the nutrients and, and then you have to wait until you can grow a crop and then the regulatory risk is, you know, something that historically hasn't really been a concern. But I think with things like pfas, we haven't really seen concentrations that are concerning. But, you know, things can happen very quickly where regulatory requirements change. You've seen in some states where land application has been severely restricted or even banned entirely. So Connecticut and Maine, just through some legislation in the last couple years, has, have done that. I think in Colorado, we have the benefit of, you know, a lot of the, the waste. The biosolids is a municipal, I think where the. That's been an issue on the regulatory side. It's been a lot of industrial contaminated waste from paper mills and things like that. We also have a lot of land here, so I think we're, we're insulated a little bit from, you know, we don't have to apply, you know, dozens of tons per acre to dispose of it. We, you were typically putting down, you know, one to three tons per acre, so.

All right, cool. Well, Steve, take me through like. Okay, if you go out to the test plot, what happens? You want to test some soil, like, generally for the listeners? For me, sure. How do you. What does that look like?

Yeah. Well, we rely heavily on a hydraulic soil probe. It's mounted to the back of a truck, pickup truck, and it just drives the steel sample core into the ground because we go pretty deep. We go a couple meters for nitrate and ammonium, but we focus on about the top 30 centimeters. But we poke a lot of holes. We take a lot of samples. I mean, we'll take hundreds of samples and combine them with each of our different reps, replicate plots out there, and then we take them back to lab and dry them and sieve them and then run them through our different nutrients, metals. We also look at the, you know, the salt content. You know, we don't want to be adding. You don't be adding things to the soil that are going to impede crop growth. You got to keep an eye on that. So salinity is important and we haven't really had an issue with that.

Okay.

And then also ph. You don't want to be over acidifying the soil. And now everything's been fine. And then we also. We haven't really. It's interesting. We haven't looked at carbon. We haven't analyzed the biosolids for carbon. Mainly. Mainly because it hasn't been a requirement.

Yeah.

Over the years. But now, you know, carbon's like a big thing, carbon sequestration and all that. So we're. I took a look at the data going back several decades just to kind of see, you know, we're adding this organic material to the soil. Is it accumulating? And the answer was kind of yes and no. I mean, it depends. Like if you put it on year after year, you get this. You'll see higher levels of organic matter in the biosolids treated plots versus the inorganic. But it tends to tail off because it's surface applied and it breaks down pretty fast. It's a no till system out there, which has its advantages. But. Yeah. And some of the side benefits, what we haven't really looked into is, you know, we assume that as you add organic matter, you tend to. You're hoping that your soil's ability to hold on to water is increasing.

Yeah.

Which is, you know, obviously a big deal during drought, especially in a dryland system where you're not adding any water. So we haven't. That's something you could possibly kind of look at. Kind of the water holding capacity of the soil.

Yeah.

In the future.

Cool. And Dan, you mentioned you're always making, you know, the wastewater is always coming in. Right. So biosolids are being produced. But say you have a drought, say you have something where you can't, you know, use this fertilizer on fields. What do you do? What else can you do with it? Or, and even more than that, if you weren't putting it on fields, what other options are there for this? Biosolids.

Yeah. So the conventional option would be to landfill it. Typically that's quite a bit more expensive. And actually landfilling has other environmental impacts because you're not really capturing the methane through that. I think in California they've actually banned or significantly restricted landfilling and biosolids for environmental reasons. Another option where we've diversified a little bit because we actually have had droughts in the Past is to get a contract in place with a composter. So you can send it to a composter, they'll mix it in with other organic materials and then it can go out as a, as a compost material. I think, you know, there's, there's newer technologies like incineration and pyrolysis where you, you know, gasify the material, you can dry it and reduce the volume of it. But those are, those are things that, you know, we would need to evaluate on a longer term horizon.

Yeah, maybe things park for. Park to look at in the future.

Indeed.

Yeah. Cool. Well, being a soil scientist, I mean, it got you to Antarctica and it got you to Molybdenum Climax Mine. But what for someone getting into the industry, what, what is something you think they would be shocked or not? You know, they'd be surprised to see or to experience?

Well, for me, I thought I'd be spending the majority of my time outside, you know, soil science. You're out there in the soils, but I spend a surprising amount. Well, to me it was surprising at first, this amount of time in the lab or staring at a computer screen. But I mean, it's still cool. You go out there, you grab your soil samples, you bring them in the lab and that keeps you busy for several months and then you kind of go out and do the same thing over and over on all kinds of different projects. Yeah, yeah. I don't know. For some reason I thought I was going to be out in the field all the time, but as I get older, I'm kind of glad I'm not.

Yeah, right. Yeah. I'm sure it's a lot of tracking and meticulous record keeping, you know, to do all those core center, you know, soil samples, keep them straight. So, you know, what's what, what came from where, what time, what, you know, location. It's probably a lot of. A lot of detailed work, huh? Yeah.

We will come back from the a sampling trip and out of these test plots and we'll have hundreds of samples. So. Yeah, so it is definitely takes some organization to keep track of it.

Yeah. Cool. How about you, Dan? What do you think somebody surprised to learn about. About what you do or about the biosolids program?

Yeah, I guess for me, you know, I sort of knew what I was getting into on the technical side, but I think the social side and just the scope of the operation, you know, you're talking to farmers and working on leases and things like that, and you get into some of the nuances, you know, Learning about cropping rotations. And we had, we had one lease where the farmer was saying, oh, I think the price is too high, you know, what, what's going on here? And we were doing everything in acres and this was rangeland, so they needed it in animal units. So you know, that's like a calf cow pair or something like that. So, so just those, yeah, just keeping those relationships good with the farmers is critical to this whole operation.

Yeah.

And just that social side of it.

Yeah. The fact you just said the words calf, cow, pear, probably, you probably never thought you'd say that. And when you were going to engineering

school or know what that's supposed to cost.

Right.

Yeah, just, just to add, to follow up on that, I mean that the relationship with the grower is key. I mean this doesn't happen without, you know, his involvement and just being really into the project. And we take a lot of his advice because I mean this, he's the farmer, he knows what's, you know, he knows what to grow and all that stuff. And plus he does the harvesting so, you know, we don't have to, he harvests all the grain samples for us. We just go down and pick them up and analyze.

So, so the farmer's generally receptive to, to this research into this science and

he helps guide you know, changes in like cropping rotations because like they wanted to try, you know, add millet because millet's really good at kind of erosion control because really there's a lot of good stubble left behind.

Yeah.

Holds the soil in the ground. So we added millet just a few years ago. So.

Cool. Yeah, it's a, it really is the social side of it. You're involving, you know, academics, farmers. The public is often concerned about biosolids. You're involved in the plant personnel who's creating it and so many different people with different outlooks. It's got to be, I don't know, challenging but interesting, I'm sure.

Yeah. I think for a career field it's surprising how creative it gets. Right. Like we've been doing a lot of this research for 40 years, but there's still all these unanswered questions, like Steve was saying about carbon sequestration. Could we try out some different drought tolerant crops? All these, all these different things that we could play around with out there to make it a better operation and more resilient.

Yeah. Cool. Well, what have I forgotten to ask you or what do you want to. Is there anything you want to leave the listeners with that I haven't asked you here today before we get to the end of show quiz.

No, I'm just, I'm just glad to be a part of this, this program. I mean this, I'm kind of coming in at the tail end of this whatever 40 some odd year relationship.

Well, hopefully not the tail end. Just

thank you. But anyway, yeah, so I'm kind of standing on the shoulders of giants or whatever that saying is.

Yeah.

Glad to be able to keep this going.

Yeah, it is, it is good to think like, wow, this library, this data, this research, this partnership has been going on since the 80s. That's like, that's a long time ago. That's like.

Because most of my projects are, you know, they're on a grant funded cycle. So if you get three to five years of data, you're doing really well. Something like this is just, just really unusual. Yeah, it's really a great opportunity.

I know what I wanted to ask you. You work at the Ag Agricultural Experiment Station, is that right? Yeah. Tell me a little bit about that. What is that there?

So it's through Colorado State University. They have about 10 research centers spread out across Colorado in different cropping systems. So there's one like in southeast Colorado that's a dry land system. So they grow different crops in these areas and they have just different kinds of different types of research, different scientists out there. Then the west slope, they've got, you know, there's an organic farm that grows fruit up near Hotchkiss. There's just all kinds of different stations where they just do ag research and try to get that information out to the growers.

Yeah, I think there's one where I'm from, San Luis Valley that does like grain and stuff.

Potatoes. Yep. Yeah.

Cool. How about you, Dan? What have I, what have I forgotten here? Probably a ton, but we can't get it all into 25 minutes.

I think as a, as a data nerd, I've got to make a plug for my data and regulatory people. We talked about the drought stuff and a couple of years ago we were in the middle of a multi year drought. At the time it seemed like an emergency situation. Just by gathering the data and doing some more soil sampling, my group spun up this dashboard in power bi and we were able to look at the data and reassure ourselves that we had plenty of land. So just the power of data and we're always collecting so much out there all the time. You know, there's the climate station that CSU has. We're doing these soil samples and so putting that Data to good use so we can make this a better operation is an important part of the program.

Yeah, I can imagine with 10,000 acres in play, trying to keep track, like I was saying, with the soil samples but also with the farms themselves of like, is it a lot of GPS or GIS kind of work or how do you do it?

Yeah, it's map based, so it's kind of a combination of mapping and data and we use Power BI for that. So it's kind of a business intelligence tool. And yeah, I think like you said, it's you know, just being able to get a handle on where have crops been grown or you know, can we look back and maybe there's a site where you haven't grown a crop in three years and we can ask ourselves why is that? You know, did the farmer not grow a crop? And so the nitrogen is too high still and you know, then maybe we can communicate out, you need to grow a crop there. Yeah, so it just gives a much better window into the operation when you can look at the data in a nice simple format.

Yeah, yeah. And I think you've got it dialed into like right now we have X number of days of land application available. Like even that deep, huh?

Yeah, we add up, you know, we, we kind of estimate what the tons per acre will be on the land that we have available. We know, we know that based on what the nitrogen concentrations are. We know how many loads we can take to the composter. We have a storage pad. We know how many loads can fit there. So yeah, you can, you know, you spit out. We have 385 days left and we know we're good for the year.

Yeah, yeah, it's like logistics almost. What are we gonna do? Well, cool. I'm glad that, I'm glad that we had this episode. I wanted to talk about this. I'm always glad that the biosolids program exists. I think, you know, recycling all these nutrients instead of getting commercial nitrogen phosphorus and mining phosphorus from somewhere and dumping it on the ground when you could recycle and keep the, the whole cycle going is great. So, and that's all possible I think because of the partnership, the science, the, the data work that you all do. So thanks for being here and telling listeners a little bit about it, but it's not over yet. Now we have the end of show quiz, so I'm gonna give you three choices and you guys can work together to decide. Auto slogans. Here we go. Water. That's a good one. Or Mr. What do you want auto slogans, water or Mr. There's four questions.

I kind of feel like, what is water? What is mister?

It just says mister.

Oh, Mr. Okay. Okay. Yeah, I think we should probably stick with water.

Yeah, it seems like the safest.

Seems like the scientist way to go.

We'll see.

Okay, question one. A music company that's virtually as vast as its water. Namesake music company. More specifically, a record company,

Atlantic.

You got it. All right, one for one. Number two, Name the personal watercraft maker who made a splash starting in 1968. Personal watercraft maker.

Personal watercraft. So like an inner tube.

I don't know. It's your turn.

You know what this is? This is out there. But I had a guy that worked for me that bought a boat made by Cadillac that was like around that model. So I'll go with Cadillac. I bet. It's so wrong.

It's closer than inner tube. It's sea doo. Like personal watercraft. All right, all right. Well, you're one for two. 50%. That's good. Name the prestigious line of glassware long produced in Ireland. Remember, the category is water.

Should have gone without us.

Clearly this was not the direction you

guys thought it would be. Like, what are the molecules? I'll give you a hint. I'll give you a hint. It's. It says glassware, but it's more like crystal. The prestigious line of crystal wear produced in Ireland.

I feel like I should know this,

but you're both gonna know what I say. It's Waterford crystal.

I don't know any of that. Sorry.

Okay, last one. You can still get 50 here, I think. Oh, no. You can. Yeah, you can. You get 50 with this. An ocean current that's also a high flying business perk.

Oh, Golf three, maybe.

Yeah.

Final answer.

Yeah.

All right. GulfStream is correct. 50%, that is. That is.

I could picture where it was in the world, but I forgot the name of it, so.

Well, that is. That is good. We'll have you back on for a follow up episode. Maybe you guys can improve your 50 score or maybe not, I don't know. But anyway, that's not the important part. The important part. We learned a lot about biosolids. We learned a lot about research and partnerships and the value of those. And so thanks for being here again. It's been fun and to our listeners, thanks for being here. Thanks for tuning in and watching the show on YouTube or listening on Apple podcasts or wherever you're listening on. If you like the show, give us a five star review. Give us a shout out, tell your friends, tell your neighbors, tell a soil scientist that you know, tell a beneficial used truck driver that you might have down the street living next to you. And we'll get the word out that way. And in the meantime, we'll see you next time on the Innovation Flow podcast.