S2E9 -A New Way to Aerate: The MABR Pilot Explained

Welcome everyone to Innovation Flow Podcast. Thanks for being here today. Today we have a great guest, Ryan Petrinella with Fluence Corporation has joined us today. Thanks for being here, Ryan.

Hey, yeah, thanks for having me, Blair. Really excited to be on my first podcast.

All right, yeah, first podcast. I'm glad it could be with us here.

Yeah, me too, me too. Looking forward to it.

We'll try to make it a good one for your first time here.

Yeah, let's do it.

All right, uh, today we're going to talk about MABR, which is a pilot trailer that we have out at the park site doing research, getting some data. And so, Ryan, why don't you, uh, well, before we even get there, why don't you just tell us a little bit about who you are, how you got to where you are, what your day job is, stuff like that?

Yeah, sure thing, happy to. Uh, hey everybody, my name is Ryan Petrinella. I'm a regional sales manager with Fluence Corporation. Born and raised in Tucson, Arizona. Went to the U of A, Bear Down, go Wildcats. Engineer by training. I got my start in the water industry back in 2020 with Westech. It's what brought me to Salt Lake City where I currently live. Worked with Westech for 3 years as an application engineer, process engineer, then came over to Fluence, started out with them supporting them as an application engineer and I learned over time that engineers are not the best communicators, and I actually have that as a skill set. So kind of worked my way up into being a sales manager.

Cool. What do you think is the big hurdle with engineers and communication?

Oh, I don't know. I just—

I've seen it. I just want to break it down.

You know, I think that engineers are very intelligent people. very book smart, I think, sometimes when it comes to the building relationship piece or the presenting projects and things like that. I was always the guy in college who was, oh, Ryan, you go up in front of everyone and talk to people 'cause we don't feel the most comfortable doing that.

Yeah.

So yeah, I couldn't pinpoint it exactly, but I just know that sometimes there's some awkward I can help pinpoint it.

I think that the engineer brain is like so smart, but it gets— that's the problem. Like, it won't allow the other parts of the brain, like the easygoing, I could talk to people, because it's too busy engineering in there.

Definitely, definitely. There's too much going on upstairs.

Yeah, that's right. All right, well, cool. Uh, icebreaker question, and I gave you this one earlier because I didn't want to hit you cold with this, but What's one thing that you loved doing as a kid that you secretly still love? Or one thing that you loved as a kid that you secretly still love?

One thing I still love that I secretly still love would be Charleston Chews.

Oh, yeah.

You know, they're kind of hard to find now. You can't just get them at a regular convenience store. You got to find the specialty candy shops that carry them. You throw them in the freezer— chocolate, strawberry, vanilla, whatever the flavor. Oh, that's my favorite.

Yeah, I do love those too. They're not great for dental work.

No, no, those things will rip your teeth out.

I think they were designed— I think they were designed by dentists. Yeah, for dentists.

They might have, they might have been, that's for sure.

Charleston Chew, ah, that takes me back. I used to like those and, uh, Bit-O-Honey, which are also not good. All these are not good for dental work.

Yeah, those will rip out your, uh, your fillings for sure.

Heck yeah. All right, well, let's get into the topic at hand, MABR. So first, uh, first take me and the listeners through what is MABR, uh, but, but try to break it down simple for us.

Yeah, sure. Well, let's start with, uh, with the, you know, abbreviation here, MABR. We've got a lot of these in our industry. Um, I think one of the major points of confusion that people have is it sounds similar to a couple other, uh, common, you know, technologies in our industry. That's MBR and MBBR. So our MBR is a membrane bioreactor. That's when you're using ultrafiltration on the back end of your system. You can typically operate at a higher MLSS and achieve more higher quality effluent. And BBRs, that's a moving bed bioreactor. Those are, you think about the little macaroni noodles that are basically growing your biology floating around in a tank. That's your MBBR. MABR is a membrane aerated biofilm reactor, and this technology specifically is one of the most efficient ways to introduce oxygen into a waste stream. That's one of the biggest energy requirements in a wastewater treatment plant is introducing oxygen to a system, and we feel that our MABR is basically the most efficient way to deliver oxygen to a wastewater treatment plant.

Why, where does that efficiency come from? Why is it, why is it better than just bubbling? You know, I think now what most people have is bubblers or blowers that either bubble fine bubbles or coarse bubbles through the water.

Yeah.

How does this get more efficient?

Yeah, yeah, that's right. Well, maybe I can just kind of show a little model here today.

Cool.

So this is our MABR. If you'll You'll notice that we have this black corrugated plastic on the outside. That's basically providing space for wastewater to interact with this white membrane that you see here. Now, this white membrane is dual-sided. We seam weld the sides and the ends of this, and essentially what we're doing is we're using this as a lung. You know, think about how your lungs work when you breathe. You have that rib cage. That's sort of our black plastic here on the outside that's providing structure to our membrane. And then your inner lungs is this white sleeve here. We're using this sleeve to diffuse oxygen into the wastewater on a biofilm that will actually grow on either side of this white membrane. When we think about membrane in our industry, you know, this technology has a bit of a misnomer. A membrane is something that we're passing water through a physical barrier. And we're leaving solids on one side, pushing clean water through the other side. Our MABR, we're actually not passing any water through our membrane. We're just using it to diffuse oxygen out of that membrane.

Oh.

So with, you know, you're talking about diffusers earlier, we have coarse bubble diffusers, fine bubble diffusers. Those technologies require you to overcome the hydrostatic pressure of the water. You basically have to introduce enough pressure to get that air down to the bottom of your tank. You know, sometimes these are 15, 20-foot tanks, which requires a lot of energy and pressure. For us, we're just supplying enough air to diffuse out of our membrane, and that's less than a PSI for us. In our unit out at PARC, we have a blower in there that's supplying oxygen to this membrane that's about the size of your hand.

Oh.

You know, a third or a quarter of a horsepower. So super low energy and low pressure.

Nice. Yeah, blowers are a huge thing at plants, at our plant and every plant I've ever seen. They're huge power consumption, they're huge maintenance requirements because they're giant and it takes a bunch of them. And I always think like, yeah, it doesn't matter how, you know, they keep trying to make the bubbles finer so you get more contact with the water, but no matter how fine, you're still not that efficient because a lot of it's just bubbling up to the top and going into the atmosphere. So yeah, I can see where this would be. I could see where— what you're talking about here.

Yeah, and this is actually bubbleless aeration. So when you look at one of these operating above this MABR, you won't actually see any bubbles. Oh, the oxygen is being super efficiently utilized by the biofilm that grows on either end of this membrane here. So, you know, your basic oxygen in atmospheric air is, I think, 21% oxygen. We've put oxygen sensors on the back end once that air basically circulates through our membrane, and we're measuring about 18% of oxygen, which shows us that that biofilm basically has the capacity to take the oxygen that it needs to support a healthy autotrophic bacteria, a biofilm that grows on our membrane. So yeah, ultimately we're, you know, we're just really efficiently utilizing the oxygen with our biology.

Cool. And what it was— what's the point of all this for the, for the listeners? Why we want to grow that bacteria? What does the bacteria do? And why do we need to, you know, keep it healthy?

Yeah, sure. So, so this bacteria is, uh, you know, It's specifically a nitrifying bacteria. What we do with nitrifiers is we take ammonia, which is the predominant pollutant, the predominant form of nitrogen in raw wastewater, comes into a plant as ammonia. And typically the first step in, you know, treating that wastewater is to target the ammonia and nitrify it to to nitrate. So our biofilm here is basically taking that influent ammonia, turning it into nitrate, and then we also perform what's called SND, simultaneous nitrification-denitrification. So once that biofilm turns the ammonia into nitrate, this is actually submerged in an anoxic reactor. So the anoxic area here, think really low dissolved oxygen concentrations. What's happening is that in that low dissolved oxygen, we're basically utilizing the oxygen in that nitrate molecule to remove BOD, and we end up with what's called SND, simultaneous nitrification-denitrification. So we're taking that residual nitrate and turning it into nitrogen gas, essentially removing nitrogen from the system.

Cool. So something that Maybe it would normally take 2 or 3 steps, you got it all hooked into 1 step simultaneously using just the right amount of oxygen that it requires and getting more efficient with it.

Yeah, that's correct. And, you know, to follow with that, we actually have this patent over low dissolved oxygen following our MABR. You know, a lot of other technologies out there will have what's called an IMLR, an internal mixed recycle. That is basically sending that residual nitrate back to the front part of the plant. Because we have that low DO following our anoxic step, we actually can do this in a single pass. So we don't need that extra energy required to recycle the water. It's just not required in our process.

All right.

Yeah.

Well, let's talk a little bit about the pilot trailer you got out on the park site. Take us through how it was setting that up, what it looks like, and what you're What you're measuring out there.

Yeah, sure. So we, you know, we just set this up. We're working with Black& Veatch and the folks here at SPR on this facility. I think it was just delivered about 6 weeks ago. You know, that initial startup looked like trucking over— this facility uses trickling filters. So we basically carried over these solids that were, you know, from the sloughing of that trickling filters. I was talking with Becca Chapa, who's— shout out to Becca, thanks for all your help on this project. She's been leading this from the Black& Veatch side. I was talking with her yesterday about how they had 10 trucks basically, they were filling up totes and running these trucks back and forth to seed our system. It's typically how we kickstart that biofilm growth on our reactors, take existing biology introduce it to our system, and it then basically overcomes— it consumes the, you know, the membrane surface and starts to grow its own bio, you know, colony on that surface.

Cool.

Yeah.

So you get the exact, uh, the exact right kind because it comes right from the plant you're at, huh?

Yeah, and it's actually— so we, we typically like to introduce mixed liquor, uh, MLSS, mixed liquor suspended solids. The, the You know, the solids that we introduced to our system here is not sloughing solids from a trickling filter, isn't quite MLSS.

Yeah.

But we found that we're still able to— we're already seeing nitrifying from that plant. We're seeing that we're removing ammonia, which means that, you know, that our biofilms are already, you know, I think we just started it up 4 weeks ago, so we're already seeing that population grow. growing and healthy, and we're already starting to see results.

Cool.

Which is great.

So how long do you— is it scheduled to be out there, and how will you know, or what will be the next steps after you get results from this study?

Yeah, sure. So, you know, the whole intention of this study is to see, well, how can we implement this full-scale at the SPR facility? You know, SPR is, my understanding is, designed for 50 MGD, currently operating at around 20 MGD. But the issue there is that, you know, over time we've seen essentially the same quantity of wastewater entering this plant, but the loadings have increased.

Yeah.

Basically, more people moving to the area, more concentrated waste, and the system was just not designed for that. Our technology we're looking at right now at this pilot The idea is that eventually this could be, you know, retrofitted into the existing basins that they have on site, which would essentially allow park, or SPR in this case, to, you know, install our towers without requiring any additional infrastructure.

Yeah.

No new basins, no new tankage. We're going to try to show that we can intensify this process by up to 30%. So specifically with the pilot, you know, we've got 5 major goals here. Process intensification, so we're looking at how much total nitrogen can we remove from the process.

Mm-hmm.

We're looking at the aeration implications. So we talked a bit earlier about how much, you know, power and energy is required for aeration. And with this pilot, we intend to stress test it and and look at basically how low can we run the dissolved oxygen following our system, so that eventually for this full-scale installation, it would allow this, you know, large facility to basically turn down those blowers and provide less air, and we're still seeing, we still want to see those effluent requirements lower our total nitrogen.

Yeah.

Another one was the operation resilience. So the plan is to stress test the system system. I know it gets really cold here in Colorado in the wintertime, so we intend to measure basically how our performance does when things get cold. Typically, biology does not do very well or performs less well when it's, when it's colder.

Yeah, I do as well.

Yeah, right? But, you know, for our system, we've actually seen it's a good product in good technology for colder, colder installations and colder temperatures. A coworker of mine described it the other day, you know, with our biofilm, it's like if you're with a group of people and you give somebody a hug, you're gonna be warmer, right? So our biofilm is this colony of bacteria that, you know, is all close together and healthy, and we think that, you know, because of Because of the biofilm and the robustness of it, you know, you have all this biology that's living together, that it does better in those colder, colder applications.

You think it's— they're giving each other hugs there on the membrane?

Yeah, they're all just— yeah, we have our little bacteria, our little autotrophs all hugging each other.

All right, I'll buy that.

Staying warm in the winter. So those were the first 3: process intensification, aeration implications, operational resilience. The 4th one is PDNA, which is what SPR performs at this facility. It's partial denitrification anammox, and in order to perform that process, you actually need a specific ratio of ammonia to nitrate. Typically in the past, what we've done with our MABR is we're trying to knock down total nitrogen to limits as low as 5 or even 3 milligrams per liter.

Mm-hmm.

In this case, we're actually trying to show that we can basically output a steady ratio of ammonia to nitrate.

Okay.

And then finally, yeah, the full-scale applicability. Basically, how can we deploy this at SPR full-scale?

Yeah, I love the, uh, the whole intensification idea, or, you know, I love the idea of using existing concrete and not having to build a whole new plant or a whole new bunch of basins, using what we have. And making it work better with different technology. That's great.

Yeah, absolutely. And it's, you know, it's what we're trying to showcase in the United States. We've got, you know, a few of these retrofits that we've done internationally. We're really excited to be working with SPR and PARC and Black& Veatch on this to basically showcase what we can do for these larger municipal plants.

Yeah. How has the whole process been working with staff, working with Park, the facility? How's that been going?

Super collaborative. Yeah, when we first came out to install the system, I think this is about 6 weeks ago now, we showed up with a few of our technicians and just a bunch of people ready and willing to help. You know, we had Black& Veatch's support, Park's support, you know, lots of engineers here at SPR that are excited to see this thing get going and off the ground. In addition, shout out to the lab. Um, you know, while we're still bringing on some sensors to more accurately monitor our nitrogen removal, uh, the lab here has been supporting all of our efforts and, and sampling for us, which has been, you know, super, super helpful so that we know how, how we're performing so far. And, uh, you know, making sure that we're in line to really start stress testing the system.

Yeah.

And see how it does.

Yeah, I think that's one of the good things about PARC is it gets the lab involved, gets operators involved, gets engineering staff, you know, so they are familiar with the technology, familiar with the testing that's needed. You know, just they get it from the start instead of just, you know, a lot of these things, they're designed somewhere and then they come and say, we're going to build this, and, you know, that's where your interaction happens. This, it's like they get to grow up with it, see it all the way through.

Yeah, and it, you know, for us it's great that we can actually use, you know, this is actual wastewater that we're treating through our system, and we have the ability to change all these different parameters. You know, the pilot's scheduled for 12 months, for a year, so over the next year we intend to, you know, try a different, a bunch of different operating conditions.

Yeah.

See if we can pinpoint, you know, exactly what conditions we need, what SPR would need for a full-scale installation to basically help with this, these more stricter effluent requirements that are coming.

Cool. Well, nice. I know it's getting, getting busy out there at the park site. The campground is almost full over there. I think we're making satellite sites.

Oh yeah.

There's a lot of interest, but we're glad to have you and Interested to see what results. We'll have to have you back at the end of the year and see what you learned and how it went.

I'd really appreciate that. I'd love to come back and basically share the results that we've received and that we've seen here at PARC. Would love that opportunity.

Cool. All right, before we get to the end-of-show quiz, Ryan, let me just ask you, what's your favorite part about being in this business, about being in the wastewater innovation technology sales kind of, you know, with the space you're in, what do you like about it?

Yeah, sure. You know, growing up in Tucson, Arizona, so in Tucson we have pretty, you know, our drinking water and just, we're having water problems in Tucson, to say the least. You know, there's the main supply of water is coming from the CAP, the Central Arizona Project, which is this 300-mile man-made canal that basically diverts water from the Colorado River all the way over to Tucson. So growing up, I kind of saw the writing on the wall. I saw just how challenging, you know, this is going to be for the future. We continue to grow as population. Every time I go back to Tucson, it's crazy to see all this development still, and it's like, we don't have the water. So I really, I wanted to go into an industry with my engineering background where I felt you know, really good about what I was doing with my career.

Yeah.

I wanted to, you know, have a— as a chemical engineer, they sort of fed us oil and distillation columns. They trained us to go work for Exxon or go work in Texas.

Mm-hmm.

And I think ethically and morally, it would have been pretty hard for me to, to do something like that. I really wanted to do something where I felt like I was, you know, had a part in making the world a better place. And, and water, I do feel It's maybe not the most glamorous job working in wastewater, but I do feel good ultimately about, about what I'm doing.

Good. Well, we're glad you made it to this industry. Yeah, and I'm glad to have you on the podcast today. It's been fun.

Yeah, thanks so much, Blair. Really appreciate it.

All right, you ready for the end of show quiz?

I hope so.

All right, I'll give you some choices here. All right, you can either pick songs, partners, Or superstores?

I think we should go with songs. I do love Costco.

Okay, all right, songs it is. Yeah, there's 4 questions. We'll see how you do. Name the chain of restaurants that also— that's also the title of a Rolling Stones song. This might have been before your time. In the chain of restaurants that's also the title of a Rolling Stones song?

I wanna say like Texas Roadhouse or something, but that can't be right.

Close. Ruby Tuesday.

Ruby Tuesday.

I don't remember that song from the Stones. Yeah, I don't either. I don't know. I wasn't into the Stones all that much.

No.

Okay, what citrus soft drink was also a hit song by R.E.M.?

Fanta.

Nope.

Oh, then it's— no, it's not Orangina. What's the other one?

I don't know. Orange Crush.

Orange Crush.

Orange Crush. All right, name the Donovan song that gave its name to another citrus soft drink. Wow, a lot of citrus soft drinks. Name the Donovan song that gave its name to another citrus soft drink.

We're gonna say Fanta that time.

Mellow Yellow.

Ah, I'm doing terrible.

All right, all right, you can redeem yourself with this last one. These are hard. What teenage deodorant brand can be found in the title of a hit Nirvana song?

I mean, Axe comes to mind.

Hmm, no.

Old Spice.

Title of a hit Nirvana song.

Smells Like Teen Spirit?

You got it, Teen Spirit. Okay, Teen Spirit. I guess that is a deodorant. All right, well, you're 1 for 4. I went for 4. You didn't get shut out, so that's good. That was a hard category. I don't know how superstores or partners would have been, but you picked the hard one. Well, you know, in spite of only getting one, you did great on the podcast for your first podcast. Glad to have you here and glad to see all the work that you're doing with the MABR and with Fluence out in the— at the Parkside. So thanks for being here.

Yeah, thanks so much, Blair. Really, really appreciate you having me.

Cool. To our listeners, thanks for listening to the Innovation Flow Podcast. If you have show ideas, shoot them to me, topics you want to hear about, let me know. Otherwise, we'll keep looking out on the park site, see what technologies are coming through, and interviewing people leading the way in researching water and wastewater technologies. If you like the show, give us a thumbs up or a like on whatever podcast you're listening. And we'll see you next time on the Innovation Flow Podcast.